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> Balancing
TJ09
Posted: May 26 2011, 01:10 AM
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So far, it's looking like the difficulty curve is the exact opposite of where it should be: Starting off is really hard, and later on it becomes really easy. Ideally, it should be the other way around: east to start, and difficult (or medium-difficult) once you accumulate a lot of leetles.

I've got a few ideas to help fix the balancing:
  • Tweak the ÁP-per-click curve
    The difficulty curve is probably directly related to the ÁP-per-click curve. If I give newbies more money per click, it'll be easier for them, and if I reduce the rate at which you level up, then the "end-game" will be harder. I could do one or both of those (increase initial ÁP-per-click, decrease higher-level ÁP-per-click).
  • Let new artists submit one creation for free
    It'd probably be helpful to new users to not force them to gain a ton of money before they can create their first Leetle. This would help artists start off.
  • Give new clickers a "My First Leetle" bundle
    Similar to the free first creation for artists, giving clickers a few of leetles to receive clicks on would go a long way to helping them afford Leetles sooner. Plus it reduces the feeling of "I have an account. Now wat do?"
  • Let new clickers buy one Leetle for free/steeply-discounted
    Alternatively, I could subsidize the first Leetle a clicker buys. The discount would not be seen by shop owners--they'd receive the full price, but the new user wouldn't pay as much.

I'd like feedback on these, particularly for the members like Lunchbox who seem have conquered the ÁP curve and are no longer challenged, as well as newer users who are just gaining their footing. It'd also be nice to hear from people who tried Leetles and quit before getting very far, but I don't think they stick around the forums.
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Lunchbox
Posted: May 26 2011, 07:24 AM
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I'd like to state I can only speak from my own experience.
Account: Artist
Current Difficulty: Moderate to Hard

My reasoning for the difficulty is this ...well I'll start from the beginning.

Start difficulty (0 creations): Ffffffffffff... it took me 3days of scrounging before I gave up and, asked PL for a loan. I can see how ppl just walk in and leave. Once you get that first creation in the site opens up.

Middle difficulty(1-50 creations): Uber easy, Rolling in dough. Peaked at 40 creations

End difficulty (50-100): Fffffffffffff x10. Once that new creation price hits above 10,000 your basically freaked, and anything you saved fly's out the door. If it weren't for "The first national bank of Princess Lucy" funding me I probably would of left. Can't even count the number of multi thousand point loans I've gotten from her. Not to mention I jack the price way up on anything new (1 tenth of the creation price) to suck extra points out of those who have it, then bring prices down for those who don't. Also when I got a older user to restock (uber complicated stories) I'd sometimes buy everything and resell them myself. basically you bleed points at this stage.

Current Difficulty (100+ creations) Moderate to Hard: I've been saving up for space, and had a trade go sour with PL so that was a free 150,000 points (so high to scare off noobs). So I blew a good 300k on space. Current creation price is 18750. My shop currently brings in 2000-5000 per day. So I'd say the difficulty for me atm is the way I spend. If I submit new stuff 1 after another (like now) I go broke fast. Only 40k atm, which=2 new creations (hard difficulty can be defeated by loans, limited editions,etc.). If I wait, say 1 creation a week, my shop can lessen the blow and maybe I can save points (Moderate difficulty). I no longer bother with clicking. I'm hoping by the time I have 200 creations, my shop will put me on easy street. then again I thought 100 creations would do so. More new users to buy my older creation should help loads too by that time.


Tweak the ÁP-per-click curve
Increase initial ÁP-per-click:
I'd say this could help new artists loads.

Decrease higher-level ÁP-per-click:
Pointless for artist accounts with many creations. like I said my shop=2k-5k per day. the 200 clicking points per day is laughable already let alone a decrease. And now that "Lol, click 10,000 times to put out 1 adoptable. Derp." has been bypassed, it's completely useless to me. Lv 74 atm. With only a 1 time increase of 1 point in 74 levels, well that just adds another reason to the pile of reasons to stop clicking.

Let new artists submit one creation for free
Once you get that first creation in the site opens up. Common sense to have 1 creations earnings pay for the next with a little on the side for buying other ppls stuff.

Give new clickers a "My First Leetle" bundle
not a clicker couldn't tell ya.

Let new clickers buy one Leetle for free/steeply-discounted
not a clicker couldn't tell ya. anything that will let ppl buy more from my shop I'm for.

Like I said moderate to hard. If it's harder that just means more loans or waiting longer (asking for loans/handouts is degrading). Everything else is easy besides finding points for pumping out creations fast, which is my main objective at this time. Also should end game users get perks too? Like at the end of a game you have the best equipment coinciding with harder difficulty. Maybe a feature only available to higher level users. I remember not needing to buy space till I reached 100 active adopts. Maybe artist accounts can't get that feature till they rise up in levels.

Or it can be Castlevania.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aip2aIt0ROM&feature=related

hard as ballz.
---

"particularly for the members like Lunchbox who seem have conquered the ÁP curve and are no longer challenged"

My current methods are:
~Loans *
~My shop *
~buying/reselling rare leetles from old users i've poked at.
~investing; buying bulk of new creation to re-sell when the creator is gone. marri for example
~limited edition 10 only=10,000 a pop
~holiday limited edition
~And hopefully Bundle only items.

This post has been edited by Lunchbox on May 26 2011, 12:33 PM
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Lady_Dragonrider
Posted: May 26 2011, 12:05 PM
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I am kind of new. I joined in April, don't have that much yet, still in the beginning stage, I think.

Tweak the ÁP-per-click curve
More money per click for newbies sounds good to me.

Let new artists submit one creation for free
Yes to this! Things got easier when I got my first creation out there. The free creation might also need a boost to get voted in.

Give new clickers a "My First Leetle" bundle
Sounds like a good idea, however I am not a clicker.

Let new clickers buy one Leetle for free/steeply-discounted
If I was a new clicker, this would be awesome!

This post has been edited by Lady_Dragonrider on May 26 2011, 12:09 PM
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TJ09
Posted: May 26 2011, 01:07 PM
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So sounds like I need to hear from a clicker like PrincessLucy on the end-game difficulty for clickers; apparently she had plenty of monies if she's giving loans to everyone, while artist end-game doesn't need to be harder.

I can comment on how things worked out for me, although...yeah. I initially sold everything for double the creation price, and it worked fairly well, although I wasn't trying to churn out leetles every 2 days. However, I did abuse one of the glitches that duplicated shop items, which let me be more liberal with my prices. I had like 100k, and then I released the autorestocker.
Having a Leetle that is basically a required purchase for any artist and marking it up 40x from the creation price does wonders for your monies. I priced it that way to be difficult to get, but the huge profit margin is lol.

And I'm only level 10. I get 4 ÁP each time I click. D:
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Lunchbox
Posted: May 26 2011, 01:36 PM
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Ah, you mean 40x base price. I was confused for a sec. Marri feels the pain of uber creation prices too.

Yep. These clickers make me look poor.

150k trade between me and PL. The plan was I put a cookie in my shop@150k. PL buys it then puts the leetle I wanted in her shop @ 150k. To keep ppl away. Anyway, point is sillerin didn't even bat an eye at 150k and snatched the rare item before I could.
I know foxette is loaded as well. From posts I've read clickers who stay around for awhile are loaded.

I'm pretty sure PL only loaned to me so far. She's just been very nice to me. Or I'm the only one who asked.

This post has been edited by Lunchbox on May 26 2011, 01:38 PM
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TJ09
Posted: May 26 2011, 01:41 PM
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Yeah, a quick look shows that, on average, clickers have double the money of artists.
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MrJungleJosh
Posted: May 26 2011, 02:33 PM
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Clicker here, and I've been around since January. Hope my opinion can help a little too smile.gif

Tweak the ÁP-per-click curve
This does sound to logically be more fair, and I do think that beginners could definitely use more help... But I'd feel a little disappointed if a decrease was given to those at higher levels. I feel like I've worked pretty hard to get to the point where I am now, getting on here and clicking as many Leetles as I could almost every day since I signed up for an account. This is the reason I chose to be a clicker, after all.

Let new artists submit one creation for free
This is an excellent idea! Although I'm not an artist, I can imagine how tough it is to collect uP in the beginning without the benefits of a clicker account. IMO, it seems as if there really is no point to choosing an artist's account these days, when you can gain uP so easily as a clicker, then just as easily start creating as soon as an artist would be able to. Maybe you could also lower the rate at which the price of creation goes up for artists?

Give new clickers a "My First Leetle" bundle
This and the last suggestion sound like they should be part of a beginner's introduction process. There should be some sort of a tutorial for newbies just joining the site, and this would definitely be beneficial to clickers, just as the free creation would be beneficial to artists.

Let new clickers buy one Leetle for free/steeply-discounted
I think that this would be placed in the same category as the "My First Leetle" bundle, in that you should either have one or the other. I, personally, think that the bundle is a much more enjoyable idea than the discount. Also, I could imagine issues where a clicker could save their discount and collect uP up just from clicking, then gain an unfair advantage in buying a rare, limited, or otherwise unobtainable Leetle at a horrible discount, leaving the other, slightly more experienced users feeling cheated when they had to save up for such a Leetle. Perhaps, if this was implemented, it could be set for only a certain selection of Leetles?
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TJ09
Posted: May 26 2011, 02:59 PM
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QUOTE (MrJungleJosh @ May 26 2011, 02:33 PM)
IMO, it seems as if there really is no point to choosing an artist's account these days, when you can gain uP so easily as a clicker, then just as easily start creating as soon as an artist would be able to. Maybe you could also lower the rate at which the price of creation goes up for artists?

It's already lower for artists, clickers pay 2.5 times as much as artists do to create things.
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Lunchbox
Posted: May 26 2011, 03:10 PM
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So if I was a clicker

18750x2.5=46875

*___*
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MrJungleJosh
Posted: May 26 2011, 03:46 PM
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QUOTE (TJ09 @ May 26 2011, 02:59 PM)
clickers pay 2.5 times as much as artists do to create things.

I meant even cheaper than that tongue.gif lol
Quick question: Is an artist's account level also based on clicks?
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Lunchbox
Posted: May 26 2011, 04:39 PM
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QUOTE (MrJungleJosh @ May 26 2011, 02:46 PM)
QUOTE (TJ09 @ May 26 2011, 02:59 PM)
clickers pay 2.5 times as much as artists do to create things.

I meant even cheaper than that tongue.gif lol
Quick question: Is an artist's account level also based on clicks?

yep
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MrJungleJosh
Posted: May 26 2011, 06:31 PM
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In that case, maybe the leveling method could be changed for artists... For instance: Every creation that is sold by an artist account contributes to their point total and to their leveling up, instead of the clicks. And with each level up, maybe they could get a bonus amount of uP on each creation that they sell (added to the amount payed by the buyer of their creations, but paid by the system in the same manner as a clicker would receive uP for clicks) Making it sort of like the uP-per-click, except it'd be bonus-uP-per-sale.

Of course I'm just throwing ideas around... But if something similar to this were implemented, I'd find the artist accounts much more attractive than they are now.
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TJ09
Posted: May 27 2011, 04:06 AM
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Well the level system only currently affects click-based things (ÁP-per-click). If I were to alter it so that it gave other bonuses of some sort, then maybe.
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fireangel73
Posted: May 31 2011, 03:42 PM
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Newbie clicker input: I think I'd personally prefer something like a starter pack or the first-leetle-discount. Something to help newbies immediately.

I think something that's like "Oh look, you've got ÁP...try buying this Leetle __" and it could be some sort of cheap starter leetle, or it could link to some of the affordable leetles.

I was able to buy the Leetle Cookie asap, but I spent a while figuring things out. Something that could introduce the whole shop function would be beneficial, because at the beginning I was looking for some sort of cave XD
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Marie19
Posted: May 31 2011, 11:08 PM
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A Newbie-Pack would be *awesome*. I also think a newbie-starter-guide would be REALLY helpful. I was so confused when I first signed up, I had no idea how to buy Leetles, how to get points, or anything. It's *not* easily understandable. I eventually had to post here in the forums asking for help just to understand what you are supposed to do!

A little helper-thing, something that, in the beginning, would say "you have _ÁP, you can buy this Leetle" or something, would be great.

I have a clicker account, so I don't know much about the artist side of it, but it seems like the creation price can get *really* high, the more a person plays. I've been saving my points for almost two months, and I'm at 42,000. If a creation costs 10k to even *make* it, it doesn't matter how experienced you are, that can be daunting.
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Dyzi
Posted: Jun 26 2011, 03:42 PM
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As a newbie I think that all of those ideas would be really good for the newer newbs who join.
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SnowWhite
Posted: Oct 25 2011, 01:02 PM
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I am still rather new. I've got the hang of the site, but I only have about 30 leetles right now. Recently I tried to help another newbie who was having serious trouble starting up. I hope he does stay with the site.

Tweak the ÁP-per-click curve
Sounds pretty good, but not my favorite.

Let new artists submit one creation for free
I'm not an artist, so I can't really say. But it sounds like a good companion to your next suggestion.

Give new clickers a "My First Leetle" bundle
THIS!!!!! It took me forever to find out how I could buy a leetle with the meager ÁP I had. I eventually figured out that I could search based on price.

Let new clickers buy one Leetle for free/steeply-discounted
Eh. I'd really rather see a "My First Leetle" bundle instead.
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crystalfyre
Posted: Apr 16 2012, 07:34 AM
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I definitely agree that the curve is reversed right now- hard as rock before you manage to release your first leetle and then from what I've heard- tadaa!
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Jacj
Posted: Apr 18 2012, 10:29 PM
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I think a leetle bundle for clickers and a first free creation for artists would be a great idea to get people started and probably help with getting more people to stick around smile.gif

Crystalfire: its not as bad as it looks. I freaked out when I first checked the creation page and saw I needed about 1300 up's I think it was from memory, but then I realised if you wait for the creation price to get down close to 100 you can usually create the first one with about 600-700 points. If you click 100 leetles a day for your first week, there's your creation funds done smile.gif Most of the time leetles seem to be up for voting in about 2 weeks or so, so it's really not that long if you hang in there.
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Ashywolf
Posted: May 22 2012, 02:08 PM
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As an artist, I struggled for about 3 days, but once my first leetle came out I picked up about 2000 up just from that one release.

Artists should perhaps get a *leetle* boost in clicks. Instead of +1 up every 74 levels it should be more like +1 after 30. It isn't enough of a boost to make artists overpowered, but it helps.

At level 74 you'd get +4 up per click (first + is at like 16 isn't it?), which seems reasonable enough for such a high level.

This post has been edited by Ashywolf on May 27 2012, 08:44 PM
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Lady_Dragonrider
Posted: May 27 2012, 08:40 PM
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I get 3 points per click I give and I am level 72. It seems pretty low compared to what clickers get. They get like 3 times as much.
Once artist get lots of creations out there, they struggle. With each creation, the price goes up. Lunchbox has said in another post that he would be broke without trade. this tells me that artist are having a hard time once they get lots of creations out there. According to TJ, this is how it should be.
But it is not so for the clicker. With each passing level it gets easier for them. They end up with points to burn. They end up able to make leetles, despite the higher prices. I am sure that there is some point that making leetles will become too expensive, and I have no clue when that point is.
If there were more people, things would be different. Artists would have more costumers, creations would get voted in faster and there would be more creations out there. As it is right now, I think that artist need a boost and it needs to get harder for clickers as they get to higher levels.

((I don't remember when the first + is, but getting 3 up per click didn't seem to take many levels.))

This post has been edited by Lady_Dragonrider on May 27 2012, 08:50 PM
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Jacj
Posted: May 28 2012, 06:44 AM
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I was thinking maybe with artists accounts you may need to retire creations as you move along to try and keep the prices down? (Not sure how lunchbox manages not to do this smile.gif )

(I'm on level 37 and get 2 pts per click so looks like it should go up soon then yay smile.gif )

This post has been edited by Jacj on May 28 2012, 06:47 AM
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Lunchbox
Posted: May 28 2012, 09:14 AM
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Take into consideration I'm an exception to this stuff and shouldn't count. I've been at leetles since jan 17 2010 and, I've only taken a short break here or there. But other then that I log in everyday. I submitted almost 200 creations to the site. Of course I'm going to have more then other people. When I hit a rough patch I worked through it and stayed were as others left. And I've found tips and tricks to buying and selling things along the way.

This post has been edited by Lunchbox on May 28 2012, 09:50 AM
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Ashywolf
Posted: Jun 7 2012, 09:26 PM
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Well TJ seems to suggest I go here for answering this, so....

QUOTE (Ashywolf)

This has probably come up a while but do you have thoughts on having a sort of a free promotional leetle for new users? I have shown the site around a bit now, and the frequent response is that there are not enough leetles early on, and the "good" leetles take some time to get to.

I propose that one leetle is put into play for new users on sign-up. Maybe we could even have a second leetle for free if the user is active for say a week. Maybe another if they reach a 500 click count on other's leetles. Just some beginning goals/achievements to strive for. On another note, perhaps the starting uP should be more than just 100. Something like 250 seems more reasonable.

Just some things to encourage activity.


This post has been edited by Ashywolf on Jun 7 2012, 09:28 PM
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Jacj
Posted: Jun 8 2012, 12:03 AM
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Just a thought for newbies, maybe the simplest way is to just start them with a bit more money? If you started with say 500up then after 1st day of clicking (+100up from this) you'd have enough to buy at least 2-3 leetles of your choice (especially if active members try to keep 1 creation avaliable for under 300up). I think this would really help artists accounts especially when there's lots of creations for voting as I suspect some create then leave when the creation's still in limbo a few days later.
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